I was wondering if any of you had any comments concerning the missionary speakers, Dan and his wife, we had this past Sunday evening.
This is not a personal attack, for I whole heartily commend him and his wife for the work they are doing to win and equip souls around the world. The mission trip I took was not only an eye opening experience but really gave me more of a heart for missions and the work being done by missionaries. I know that some of you have had that experience also.
The reason I bring this up is two-fold. First one being this is what is ‘preached’ on TBN, as David Miller says: “Should only be watched for entertainment purposes.” Secondly- those sitting in the pews will get the wrong idea about witnessing, God, the Law, etc… as seen from the current election whining. I am surprised so many of the Shiloh members cannot digest the meat of God’s Word. You have got to get off of milk sometime Josh. =;-)
(as I relate these stories I am paraphrasing to the best of memory)
To give the benefit of the doubt, especially after speaking to Bro. Paul, I am sure Dan does not advocate in principle the way he spoke on the salvation of the two individuals I will mention below. Not only that, but to be honest, Dan did not have the time to fully describe all the events that took place to lead these two to salvation.
God’s Law has become more prominent in my thinking and witnessing since hearing and watching Ray Comfort witness.
Dan stated the story of two individuals, one man and one woman, that they had been trying to win to Christ. (actually Dan may not have been personally involved) The story of the man who was a fisherman, would not have anything to do with Jesus. His family got saved but he totally denied Christianity.
One day when the rainy season was upon them, he told one of the missionaries if they were going to pray for anything, pray for it to stop raining so they could fish, which was their living. The missionary stated that if they prayed and God answered their prayer and it stopped raining would he then believe. He said yes. Well God answered the prayer and it stopped raining and they were able to fish for several days. This was obviously a miracle in that during the rainy season it would rain for several days if not weeks in a row.
The fisherman came back to the missionary and said himself and all that worked with him now believed.
Psalm 19:7 The law of the Lord is prefect, converting the soul…
“Failure to use the Law is almost certain to result in false hope, the introduction of a false standard of Christian experience, and to fill the church with false converts.”
Charles Finney
I am concerned that he may have been given false hope. Did he believe in Jesus or did he believe God just answers prayer.
“The man who does not know the nature of the Law cannot know the nature of sin.”
John Bunyan
Does he really know he is a sinner? Does he know what sin is?
“They will never accept Grace until they tremble before a just and Holy Law.” Charles H. Spurgeon
Does he know the horrors of hell?
“Almost every natural man that hears of hell, flatters himself that he shall escape it; he depends upon himself for his own security…” Jonathan Edwards
The other story was about a woman who had pain in her legs and was not able to work in the fields as long and she should. The missionaries told her that if they asked God to heal her legs would she then believe and she said yes. And of course God answered. But my concern is what is she believing; in the miracle or God’s saving Grace.
I agree 100% that God answers prayers and performs amazing miracles today. I am fascinated to hear the true stories of how God has performed miracles for and thru the missionaries. And I would suspect He actually performs more mighty works thru the missionaries because of their cultural and language barriers.
It just hit me as being so similar to what is being spewed on TBN and from other TV evangelists. Again, Dave and Becky were not given enough time to fully explain all the events but were just telling us what God was doing thru them etc… So this is no way meant to demean their work and really I am putting the emphasis on the other worldly Hinn’s.
What thinketh ye of the Copeland’s and Hinn’s?
You will notice for privacy sake I have changed the names of the missionaries since our blog is open for public viewing.
BigDog
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3 comments:
I too found his discription interesting concerning the converts. While we don't know the whole story concerning the two converts, I do have a concern about the way the story is told.
Given limited time, maybe he was stressing the "wow" factor, but I wonder how that will lead people astray if they are not actually being drawn by the Holy Spirit.
Jesus had a similar situation in John chapter 6:
26 Jesus answered them and said, “Most assuredly, I say to you, you seek Me, not because you saw the signs, but because you ate of the loaves and were filled. 27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”
28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”
29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”
Jesus condemned the crowd for seeking Him solely for materialism or selfish gain. This conversation came one day after He had fed the 5,000 men (plus women and children). They were not even concerned with the miracle as much as the fact that they had full stomachs.
As Jesus said in verse 29, we must believe in the One who God sent. Preaching repentance as Christ commanded.
While we don't know the whole story, my prayer is that the "wow" factor to those who read this and who listen to anyone preaching the gospel is (John 1):
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the light of men.
I must admit the same thoughts came to mind upon hearing the missionaries' account of two conversions. Of course, I'm referring to the woman with leg pain and the fisherman who they promised to pray for if he would believe once God answered their prayers.
The same idea hit me Sunday morning. Since no one else commented immediately after the service, I assumed no one else took that away from the address. I'm glad Kent was thoughtful enough to bring this up. I think there's an important discussion to be had here.
I want to give Dan and Becky the benefit of the doubt by assuming they know better than to make earthly blessings the basis for belief in the gospel. This is very dangerous as it elevates gift above Giver. Since they did emphasize repentance in the conversions of those they met, I think they have an understanding of what motivates a sinner to respond in faith to Christ.
However, even though I'm glad one of their native co-workers believes God answers prayer so uncompromisingly, you do not offer the gospel to sinners on the conditions that God blesses them. That makes God look like He's fulfilling the sinner's terms rather than the sinner respond to God's call to repentance.
Furthermore, a person spiritually dead in unbelief cannot give you any kind of assurance whatsoever they will believe.
In Luke 16 when Jesus tells of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man requests Lazarus be sent back to warn his five brothers of the place of torment. Abraham responds, "If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead" (16:31).
How much less effective would answered prayer be pertaining to temporal, earthly needs than someone rising from the dead.
Ralton is keen to point us to John 6 in this matter. That's the exact text that comes to my mind when people pose a superficial faith in Christ on account of what blessings they can get out of it. What's more, the crowd departs when Christ speaks about election and man's total inability (6:44,65).
With that said, I totally commend Dan and Becky and other missionaries like them. I can only pray to be as willing and faithful to bring the gospel to those at the ends of the earth as they were. May God grant us opportunities as rewarding and sanctifying as theirs when we receive the call to go outside of our homeland.
While I completely agree that these signs alone should not have been what was given to these people so that they would believe I have full confidence in Dan and Becky's knowledge and discernment in leading people to Christ. They have been friends of my parents since before I was even thought of (sounds like those were the days huh?) and from just the conversation I had with my parents about them they seemed to be very theologically solid. Dave used to be a pastor and he and Becky both hold to the Doctrines of Grace. My personal feelings are that they were telling the stories so that we would hear the "wow" factor.
I leave you with this thought: Dave and Becky said that in Thailand most people's names were very hard to remember so they just gave each other nicknames, such as their friend "Cake." Let us not forget that Haze's nickname is Chicken Basket.
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